ellen_kushner ([info]ellen_kushner) wrote,
@ 2007-04-11 17:32:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Ryman on Hugos
In a private letter, Geoff Ryman responded to my weekend post on this year's Hugo ballots, thanking me for the LJ shout out and commenting on the Hugos' gender imbalance. I asked if I could quote his letter; instead he sent this for public posting:

I have to confess that I didn't even notice the lack of women on the Hugo nomination list until you pointed it out. Then I was shocked by it and by me for not noticing. My excuse is that I was so delighted to be on the ballot myself, and delighted for good writers like Charlie Stross, Michael Swanwick and others who are also on the ballot.

This list was not the product of a momentary lapse by an individual, or a bad boss who has reverted to type. This is an expression of a community. I don't think that the nominators, many of whom are fair-minded women, were excluding writers BECAUSE they were female or recommending books BECAUSE they were by men.

SF is driven by an underlying dream, and part of that dream is profoundly hostile to domesticity, which is traditionally assigned to women. It is hostile to staying at home on Earth. It dreams, Peter Pan-like, of magic flights to a Neverneverland in the stars, full of pirates and mermaids and Indians. It is largely a land of and for Boys. Women love it too, perhaps because they also want to escape domesticity.

These days women's place in fantasy is not as Wendy. Women get to be guys now. They have a place in the SF dream, most usually toting guns or swords. I guess it's fun for women to shoot people , and men certainly feel more at home with women who act like the rest of their buddies. I would say that the dream is hostile to the traditional place of women's power: home. Home is what you escape and Mother is who you hate. Can our stories only glance at child rearing, washing the dishes, building everyday relationships, and earning a living and not exclude women, at least to an extent?

There was a time in the 70s when it suddenly seemed that women writers were calling the shots, getting the attention and winning the awards. Le Guin, McIntyre... the list seemed endless at the time. The fiction was a series of telling subversions of that underlying dream. It was a bit like moving overworked muscles in a new direction, a relief.

We seem to have reverted to type. It's time at least to ask the question: is there something fundamental to the SF tradition that excludes many things women live through and write about? Or which tolerates those writers and their works while delivering an essentially masculine dream? Maybe in ORDER to deliver that masculine dream. Is this dream so deep and enduring that no amount of conscious political correctness can undo it? Is it the case that men find SF easier to write? Or do fine writers like Liz Williams, Gwyneth Jones, Chelsea Quinn Yarbro and Suzy McKee Charnas simply write material that is regarded as fantasy or slipstream and so doesn't make the cut?

The answers will not fit onto the back of a postcard.


Geoff Ryman's newest novel is The King's Last Song. The one before that, Air: Or, Have Not Have, won the 2005 Tiptree Award, the British Science Fiction Award and the Arthur C. Clarke Award, and was a Nebula nominee. His novelette "Pol Pot's Beautiful Daughter" is a Hugo nominee this year.


(Post a new comment)


[info]vschanoes
2007-04-11 09:51 pm UTC (link)
Well, Charnas at least has written science fiction, as far as I recall.

Ryman seems to be getting at the definition of a genre, but I wonder if it's really necessary to reach that far for an explanation. Technology and adventure are routinely and traditionally marked For Boys Only; why would it be a surprise that a genre that exists at the nexus of technology and adventure would be marked in the same way? One doesn't have to posit a patriarchal conspiracy, though that's always nice because it there were an actual Conspiracy it could be exposed and smashed, just the same, tired sexist cultural fabric that we deal with every day.

Part of the problem is that it's a fait accomplit argument, and that's highlighted by his archetypical example of Peter Pan. Peter Pan, of course, is fantasy; is fantasy as a genre really less about adventure and quest and not staying at home than is science fiction?

(Reply to this)


[info]cija
2007-04-11 09:53 pm UTC (link)
SF is driven by an underlying dream, and part of that dream is profoundly hostile to domesticity, which is traditionally assigned to women

yes --

It is hostile to staying at home on Earth.

yes --

It dreams, Peter Pan-like, of magic flights to a Neverneverland in the stars, full of pirates and mermaids and Indians.

also yes --

-- so reading along until this point, I am expecting him to say something like, and this is why SF, being a genre of such intrinsic interest to and fundamentally rooted in the experience and suppressed terrible longings of women for millenia, men make such an effort to hypercompensate and cut women out of their own natural territory -- or something. You could say that it's like the cook/chef thing: fantasy is a traditionally female craft that women do for survival and men appropriate for glory. I mean, that is not really what I think, but. But then!

It is largely a land of and for Boys.

and then I have no idea how he gets from there to here. I mean because following the logic as I understand it:

1. SF offers the wish-fulfilment of escaping from domesticity.
2. Women, historically, are the class trapped in domesticity, who have been legally, physically, practically barred from escaping it -- except, for the most part, in imagination.

3. ....therefore boys can more easily relate to the dream of leaving it behind?

This really seems to me to be backwardsed all to heck.

Home is what you escape and Mother is who you hate.

I shouldn't go on and on in your comments section so I will take the rest of my argument to my own lj, but I will note here that women have (and hate) Mothers too.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]vschanoes
2007-04-11 09:55 pm UTC (link)
Yes, and even more to the point, who would want to escape domesticity more than not just women in general, but mothers in particular.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]cija, 2007-04-11 10:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pantryslut, 2007-04-12 02:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]vschanoes, 2007-04-12 08:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pantryslut, 2007-04-12 08:50 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]sistercoyote
2007-04-11 10:01 pm UTC (link)
I think that his intent was to say that Home and Mother are things women escape/hate...but I could be misreading. Wouldn't be the first time.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]vschanoes, 2007-04-11 10:34 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]orbitalmechanic
2007-04-11 11:24 pm UTC (link)
I didn't read this as "this is a fundamental truth of nature" so much as "this is how it seems to pan out." He's describing a pretty standard interpretation of American literature, that the frontier mentality is a male myth generated by the fear of domesticity. (Of course SF is not the same as American fiction; I just note the matching of symbolic interpretation because it's there to work with.) And that form has historically been hostile to women, in the sense that they don't tend to write it and they are treated badly in it.

I wonder if we're talking about different ideas of domesticity? Because the desire to run wild that's cut short by the Mother is very different from the desire to run wild that's cut short by your own responsibility. In some ways I think the women-authored fiction that spells out the details of communal childcare is in fact a rebellion against domesticity--not against care but against the specific forms that are stifling to mothers. That's totally different from the rebellion against having a home, etc, and would produce a very different kind of fiction. I think?

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]cofax7
2007-04-11 10:32 pm UTC (link)
Sadly, Mr. Ryman left off another option: which is that (at least some of) the members of Worldcon who were voting weren't even interested in reading works by women, of any shade. This interpretation is supported at least in part by some of the comments in response to [info]rachelmanija's post on the issue, and those over at Making Light.

The fact that the Hugos are not limited to science fiction, and covers works of fantasy and slipstream, appears to have been lost on the voters as well. (Well, except for His Majesty's Dragon, and I admit in my more cynical moments to wondering how many of the Hugo voters didn't pick that up until after the announcement that Peter Jackson had optioned the series, despite the rave reviews and excellent marketing.)

(Reply to this)


[info]rustica
2007-04-11 11:27 pm UTC (link)
"Women love it too, perhaps because they also want to escape domesticity."

This is really strange. I mean, I love my little cottage and all, though perhaps that's different to the kind of domesticity he's thinking of, because neither I nor my house belong to anyone else (except the mortgage company, lol!). But I don't read sf and fantasy because I'm *running away* from something. It feels more like I'm running *towards*.

But what it is that I'm running towards varies according to the book that I'm reading at the time. The sf / fantasy books that I've been reading recently have all had female authors - Sarah Monette, Naomi Novik, Ellen Kushner (obviously :)!), and I have some Diana Wynne Jones and Le Guin to read next. I can promise him that there's no shortage of fantastic female authors out there! And I reject utterly his assumption that sf is male and fantasy is female - as [info]vschanoes says, both are equally about "adventure and quest and not staying at home".

And, says who that you can't have domesticity in space? Three words: Lois McMaster Bujold...

"The answers will not fit onto the back of a postcard."

No? I have a one-word answer to his argument that would fit perfectly well... :)

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]buymeaclue
2007-04-12 12:53 am UTC (link)
>And, says who that you can't have domesticity in space? Three words: Lois McMaster Bujold...

I kept thinking of Maureen McHugh and M. Rickert.

Now, I do think of them both as fantastists, but then, the Hugos aren't actually an sf-only award. Technically.

I've liked what I've read of Ryman's work, but this whole letter is unsettling.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]vschanoes, 2007-04-12 08:49 pm UTC (Expand)
McHugh fantasist? - [info]elysdir, 2007-04-13 10:46 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: McHugh fantasist? - [info]buymeaclue, 2007-04-14 05:06 am UTC (Expand)

[info]dichroic
2007-04-12 07:00 am UTC (link)
Also, who says that you can't have domesticity in science fiction? Two words: Connie Willis. (Actually, if I ever feel trapped it tends to be less about the home and more about biology or the workplace - and she's addressed both of those.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]dichroic, 2007-04-12 07:05 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]icecreamempress, 2007-04-13 07:39 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]adelynne
2007-04-11 11:59 pm UTC (link)
I think I'll start with being offended by the claim that escapisms and science fiction is primarily a man's domain. Or maybe I didn't grow up reading 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Who knows. I always thought science fiction and fantasy were the domain of the geek/nerd/dork/isolated kid at the back of the class who everyone makes fun of - regardless of gender.

Maybe I'm just bitter that I'm stuck in lab at 8pm with at least an hour's more work to do while my fiance is at home making dinner.

I'm also not thrilled with the line "Women get to be guys now."

Maybe I'll be less offended and more coherent later.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]swan_tower, 2007-04-12 04:46 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]oursin, 2007-04-12 09:05 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]vschanoes, 2007-04-12 08:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ellen_kushner, 2007-04-12 09:18 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]vschanoes, 2007-04-13 04:50 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ellen_kushner, 2007-04-13 04:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]vschanoes, 2007-04-14 02:12 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]swan_tower, 2007-04-13 02:17 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]adelynne, 2007-04-13 08:13 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]ithiliana
2007-04-12 01:42 am UTC (link)
First time commenting--but having become a mad fan of your work (and Delia's) (and collabs) (so much so that I've sent a proposal on it off to Mythcon), I was thrilled to see you all have LJs.

We seem to have reverted to type.

My first response to this statement is the punchline of a joke about the Lone Ranger I learned as a child: "What do you mean 'we,' white man?"

Seriously--I heard his talk at the recent ICFA and am surprised/shocked to see this sort of commentary (the limiting of sf to, what space opera?, the casual equation of women with some stereotyped view of domesticity--I want to assign him not only all of Joanna Russ' fictions but her essays--but hasn't he read them????) from him.

Roger Zelazny won the award for AMBER -- so the Hugos are not limited solely to techie-"hard"--sf, and I can sit in my room full of bookshelves and list many women publishing in sf/f and related fantastic genres--growing every years (and I've been reading sf since my father introduced me to ANALOG in the sixties).

I do not believe the problem is 'fundamental' to the SF tradition.

I do believe that it may be fundamental to many participants of the SF culture (mostly but not all of them males)....




(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]swan_tower, 2007-04-12 04:49 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]vschanoes, 2007-04-12 08:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]swan_tower, 2007-04-13 01:48 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]vschanoes, 2007-04-13 01:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]swan_tower, 2007-04-13 02:21 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]vschanoes, 2007-04-13 02:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]swan_tower, 2007-04-13 02:28 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]vschanoes, 2007-04-13 02:43 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]swan_tower, 2007-04-13 02:51 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]vschanoes, 2007-04-13 04:41 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]vschanoes, 2007-04-15 07:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]swan_tower, 2007-04-13 02:22 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ellen_kushner, 2007-04-12 06:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]swan_tower, 2007-04-12 07:49 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]hth_the_first
2007-04-12 02:25 am UTC (link)
I think what confuses me about Mr. Ryman's post is that he seems to be defending the absence of traditionally-female thematic material in sf/f ("the guys and guy-like girls don't want to read that stuff") -- which is a fair conversation to have, only...not the initial point?

Because if Ryman is willing to say that These days women's place in fantasy is not as Wendy. Women get to be guys now. They have a place in the SF dream, most usually toting guns or swords. I guess it's fun for women to shoot people , and men certainly feel more at home with women who act like the rest of their buddies ... then he still hasn't answered the question of why those gun-toting anti-Wendys aren't on the ballot.

I think the answer is simpler than all this stuff about The Dream, and creepier. Women writers frequently write about women, and in this genre, as well as in mainstream fiction, writing a book about a woman makes your book chick stuff, not serious fiction. Novik (whose books I love) is nominated for a book about two guy friends going to war, so it's legit fiction. Had either of those characters been a woman, would it have been received the same way, or would it have been automatically boxed up as some kind of for-teenage-girls-only silly dragon fluff, even if it had been word for word the same novel?

Women have adventures in girl books; men have adventures in literature. I don't think the mindset is unique to this genre.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]orbitalmechanic, 2007-04-12 12:54 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pantryslut, 2007-04-12 02:56 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ljgeoff, 2007-04-12 12:55 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]khatru1339
2007-04-12 04:02 am UTC (link)
I think a lot of the comments "disagreeing" with Geoff Ryman aren't, really. We're all saying a lot of the same things in different ways.

When I read what Geoff was saying, I put it together in my mind as this:

Science fiction was originally written for boys.
In the 1970s, sf was maturing and the field was receptive to what women were bringing into it.
Now, those different concerns are being marginalized, and the women who are the most successful are those writing the boys'-adventures-type stuff.

Those are generalizations, and you can cite plenty of exceptions, but they seem overall pretty true to me.

(The "Home and Mother" thing is that men can easily write stories in which Home and Mother are irrelevant; women, whether embracing or rejecting them, at least are willing to deal with them. Again, not to put words in Geoff's mouth, but that's how I read what he said.)

A lot of this is still that women are far more likely to read novels by men than men are to read novels by women. The fact that this is not necessarily true in our community disguises the fact that it's true outside of it. I'm male, and have had people comment that whatever book I happen to be carrying around is liable to be by a woman. Why would I be reading that?

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]cija, 2007-04-12 04:21 am UTC (Expand)
Fantasy? - (Anonymous), 2007-04-12 04:42 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Fantasy? - [info]khatru1339, 2007-04-12 05:35 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Fantasy? - [info]cija, 2007-04-12 09:38 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Fantasy? - [info]khatru1339, 2007-04-12 03:40 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Fantasy? - [info]ide_cyan, 2007-04-13 03:28 am UTC (Expand)

[info]badgerbag
2007-04-12 04:08 am UTC (link)
Hmmm, in my book that's what we call "misogyny"... women and men getting rewarded for valuing things coded "male" and hating on things coded "female". As soon as a bunch of women start doing the thing coded male, the rules change, something else is "really masculine" or "really literature" or "hard sf" or whatever. The rules change but the misogyny persists.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]susansugarspun, 2007-04-12 02:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bondgwendabond, 2007-04-12 03:54 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]coalescent, 2007-04-12 04:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]khatru1339, 2007-04-12 05:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]badgerbag, 2007-04-12 06:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]amelia_eve, 2007-04-13 02:07 am UTC (Expand)

[info]ide_cyan
2007-04-12 04:14 am UTC (link)
This list was not the product of a momentary lapse by an individual, or a bad boss who has reverted to type.

+

We seem to have reverted to type.

=

You're the bad boss, boss.

(Reply to this)


[info]lavendertook
2007-04-12 04:37 am UTC (link)
My excuse is that I was so delighted to be on the ballot myself, and delighted for good writers like Charlie Stross, Michael Swanwick and others who are also on the ballot.

Why does he need to say this? Is he trying to implicate us as having sour grapes for noticing?

And wow--how he defends away the misogyny of all this in favor of asserting some fundamental exclusion of women in sf, when we have always been at the heart of sf. And women sf writers being all about domesticity--wtf? No, hon, it's not the genre doing the excluding--its the men, pure and simple. I can't believe he has the gall to write this to a woman writer.


(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]khatru1339, 2007-04-12 05:35 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lavendertook, 2007-04-12 05:54 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]khatru1339, 2007-04-12 06:04 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lavendertook, 2007-04-13 02:17 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]khatru1339, 2007-04-13 04:42 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ellen_kushner, 2007-04-13 03:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]khatru1339, 2007-04-13 04:26 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ellen_kushner, 2007-04-13 07:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jophan, 2007-04-12 09:20 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tacithydra, 2007-04-13 04:34 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]buymeaclue, 2007-04-13 04:54 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tacithydra, 2007-04-13 05:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]buymeaclue, 2007-04-13 05:49 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tacithydra, 2007-04-13 06:06 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]buymeaclue, 2007-04-13 06:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]buymeaclue, 2007-04-12 01:11 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lavendertook, 2007-04-13 02:20 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]buymeaclue, 2007-04-13 01:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]swan_tower, 2007-04-12 01:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lavendertook, 2007-04-13 03:26 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]swan_tower, 2007-04-13 03:31 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lavendertook, 2007-04-13 03:43 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]swan_tower, 2007-04-13 04:25 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lavendertook, 2007-04-14 05:27 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]swan_tower, 2007-04-14 02:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]buymeaclue, 2007-04-13 04:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]buymeaclue, 2007-04-13 04:56 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]orbitalmechanic, 2007-04-12 04:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tacithydra, 2007-04-12 05:22 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]vcmw
2007-04-12 05:46 pm UTC (link)
Picking up on bits and pieces about the difference between material that could be called sf/f, and material that is explicitly published and marketed as sf/f, I'm thinking of the fact that something approaching 50% of the science fiction and fantasy that I currently read is being published and marketed outside of the traditional fantasy and science fiction categories. My impression as a reader has been that a lot of the stories I'm interested in following are showing up in young adult works, or are shelved in the Romance, Horror, Mystery, and (catch-all) Literary Fiction sections of bookstores. Maybe part of the absence of women in the Hugo nominees reflects the fact that a lot of fine (in many cases, NYT bestselling) female writers of works that could fall within the sf/f genre have chosen to play in a different sandbox, as it were? I'm not sure whether the main reasons that they've made those choices are in response to sexism within the field, or to market pressures, or in response to the choice of women readers who enjoy seeing sf/f ideas explored but are unwilling to think of themselves as sf/f readers?

(Reply to this)


[info]nwl
2007-04-12 06:13 pm UTC (link)
I must say that the whole discussion leaves me with a major, "So what? It just didn't happen this year. Next year might be nothing BUT women and what would that say? Well, nothing, as far as I'm concerned."

Each year is different and it's how things fall out. One year may be a total balance, next year weighted one way or the other. I see it as random, chaos, without meaning, other than some people got around to reading more current stuff than I ever shall. I think I might be caught up to 2000.

I compare this to the Oscars. Some years there are few or no black actors nominated and there is a hew and cry in the press that Hollywood and Oscars hates and ignores black actors. I see this this hue and cry this year, but it could happen next year. Does Hollywood suddenly swing wildly back and forth? No, it's just how the voting pans out.

It's not as if women have NEVER in the history were nominated or won Hugos. Maybe it was an off year. Maybe next year will be a better year for women writers or black writers or Hispanic writers, in Hugo terms. What is nominated in any given year has no more meaning to the awards or genre as a whole than if names were pulled out of a hat, no matter what the award is.

I suspect this will not be a popular view, but I don't see ANY single award as being somehow significant above the history of a genre.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]swan_tower, 2007-04-12 07:43 pm UTC (Expand)
Maybe this? - [info]raaven, 2007-04-12 08:35 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Maybe this? - [info]swan_tower, 2007-04-13 01:38 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]